Daryl Cagle: Hi, everybody.
I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast, where we're
all about editorial cartoons.
Today, we're talking about the cartoonists that are threatened with jail because of
their difficult regimes that they live in, and here are our three guests, Terry
Anderson, who's the wonderful executive director of Cartoonist Rights Network
International, and he works hard to protect, the rights of cartoonists to draw
around the world in repressive regimes.
we've got, Zehra Omuraglu, who is a cartoonist that is being
threatened with jail in Turkey.
And we've got Emad Hajjaj, who, was thrown into jail in Jordan for his cartoons.
And we're going to look at their cartoons.
So we're going to look at cartoons from a whole bunch of, great
cartoonists from around the world that were also threatened with jail.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you.
Zehra Omeroglu: Hello.
Daryl Cagle: Hi, Terry.
Let's talk about this first one.
Terry Anderson: Sure.
This is a version of an image, drawn by Atena Farghadani a decade ago now.
That's when she first, was known to the outside world, outside Iran.
She posted it to Facebook.
It's a cartoon of parliamentarians, uh, portrayed as apes and oxen.
And at that time, legislation was being passed to to curtail,
reproductive rights, for women in Iran.
Daryl Cagle: So she's in jail right now.
Terry Anderson: She's in jail right now because if we move on to the next image,
you can see the cartoon again presented as part of an exhibition of her work.
This was at the Oslo Freedom Forum this year.
She was told if she attended, she would be arrested.
So she did not attend, but she objected and protested.
She posted the following image, a cartoon talking about the, Ministry
for Information in Iran onto a wall in Pasteur Street in the middle of
Tehran and she was immediately Arrested that was in the springtime of this
year and she's been in jail since
Daryl Cagle: Iran has a history of jailing
cartoonists,
Terry Anderson: of course and at the moment a even more so protesters and
of course brutal treatment of women
Daryl Cagle: part of what we see is that, women cartoonists have it worse.
They seem to be less tolerant of women cartoonists.
Terry Anderson: I would agree with that, and, uh, my dear Zehra will talk
about that, no doubt, in due course.
But, there's a couple of other examples, uh, that we'll talk
about today that demonstrate that.
Daryl Cagle: Who is this?
Terry Anderson: This is Ashraf Omar, eh, he's in Egypt, so what we have here
are the last run of cartoons that were published on an independent news platform
there called Almanassa, cartoons about the economy in Egypt, this one is about
power cuts, eh, during the summer, electricity in short supply even though
the president was pushing ahead with an electric monorail project in Cairo.
the last cartoon portrays Sisi, the leader of, Egypt, putting out
a fire that's labelled, debt crisis with gasoline that's labelled loans.
So it's a comment about the economy, about economic policy.
Nevertheless, plainclothes policeman came to his home in July.
Arrested him, uh, initially denied that they were holding him.
We didn't know where Ashraf was for about 72 hours.
They eventually admitted that they had him and he's been charged
with, uh, support for terrorism.
And now he's now stuck.
Daryl Cagle: He's been in jail since July.
Terry Anderson: Indeed.
So he's stuck in this, uh, repeating cycle every 15 days.
They hold a conference just like we're doing right now.
They have a video call, a judge and a lawyer get on the line.
they say give him 15 more days.
That's agreed to.
it's a holdover from the days of Covid and it hasn't been, abandoned since
it was supposed to be a temporary, emergency measure, but it's how
business is still done in, uh, Cairo.
And so, uh, out of every 30 days, he gets to have a visit for 30 minutes.
So his wife has seen him for about half an hour every month since..
Daryl Cagle: You
know, we're emphasizing here the cartoons that get cartoonists thrown in jail
or threatened with jail, but there are lots of other ways that governments
use to, chill speech by cartoonists.
There are a whole lot of lawsuits, and we see these lawsuits also in EU
countries, countries that you expect to have a free press, or that have a free
press written into their constitution, or that are US or EU, allies.
That are, people that absolutely should not be doing any of this crap that you
don't expect and we expect it from Iran.
We don't expect it from EU countries or from Turkey or
from good allies like Jordan.
And that's terrible.
Terry Anderson: Yeah.
And it's the same all over.
I think it's a, it's an escalating problem.
It doesn't really matter where you are in the world.
governments everywhere, almost regardless of their politics, left, right or center.
are all becoming less tolerant of dissent and of protest, um, and
part and parcel of that is a lack of tolerance when it comes to satire
Daryl Cagle: Zehra, you're in,
you're in Turkey.
Zehra Omeroglu: yeah.
Daryl Cagle: And you're being threatened by the government of Turkey with jail.
Zehra Omeroglu: yes.
Daryl Cagle: And you have, uh, escaped to, Germany because
of the, the threat of jail.
And.
Do you really want to go back to Turkey.
Zehra Omeroglu: Yes, I want to go back, but, uh, I don't know.
Um, after the trial, if I can go back or if there will be any imprisonment
and if at the best result, I mean, best conclusion will be like
aquittal, but if even Acquittal will happen, uh, I will still have
this threatening and I have this.
this risk of happening again.
So I don't know if it's a logical thing to go back, but I want to go back.
Of course, I miss everything, like my loved ones, my house.
Now I'm in a residency program in Germany, who invited me for six
months, and trying to figure out how things will go after the trial.
Uh, because it has been, uh, like postponed for a, I mean, they don't even,
uh, need a reason to postpone it anymore.
The, basically the judge doesn't come, you know, the reasons like this.
They ask for a report, uh, which takes two years, uh, for them to write, for example.
So it's like a never ending process and I don't know, uh, what's going to happen.
We will see.
Daryl Cagle: So the point is to
just have the threat hanging over your head, and by inference over the
head of all the other cartoonists to keep them all in line, rather than
necessarily throwing you in jail, perhaps a long term threat works better.
This is one of your cartoons that you did as a, a magazine cover that
you thought was the reason why you were being threatened with prison.
And, was actually the next cartoon, but, you know, the
threat hangs over every cartoon.
, Zehra Omeroglu: It's, uh, very sad that, like, um, this cartooning tradition
is, uh, almost coming to an end, uh, which I don't want to believe, but, very
sadly, like many of my colleagues, uh, they don't even draw anymore because
all the magazine, all, not all, Le Mans still continues to be published, But
with many limitations, so it's really hard to try to survive for Le Mans also.
And any, uh, the other magazines, are like, um, closed, unfortunately.
So, there is not even a platform to continue drawing.
This is very sad because Turkey has a very strong, uh, uh, tradition of cartooning,
even, uh, starting from the Ottoman times, even before, actually, but due to the,
like, um, the pressure from the government and also the pressure from the, the people
that, uh, are being supported by the government also, just ordinary people,
just readers, but it's an atmosphere, you know, I mean, when government
supports people, who threatens us.
So they will continue to threaten us.
It's basically, I don't know if the threat, threat is right.
Threaten is right.
Sorry about my English, but I think it's clear.
so yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Well, we remember,
Cartoonist Musa Kart who was thrown in jail and the cartoonists all got
together and did drawings and his support.
And where we read about newspapers being closed because
they oppose, President Erdogan.
and, we read about other journalists having similar problems and
being thrown in jail in Turkey.
And that's terrible because Turkey is an ally of the United States.
They're supposed to have a free press.
They're trying to get into the EU where a free press is a requirement.
And, they just seem terribly oppressive, particularly in cases like you
that are just so obviously nothing that they should be messing with.
And, It's very disturbing, particularly, I think, with Turkey.
Zehra Omeroglu: Yes, it is really.
We are very, far from, freedom of speech.
We are really not even close to it.
I mean, journalists, artists, cartoonists, editorial cartoonists, we
are, uh, all facing the same problems.
Same thing, uh, in different ways.
I had a very funny moment.
I want to tell this because it's a very funny moment that I had with my,
journalist friend who was, put into jail, uh, for five years in total, but
many times, I mean, he gets out and then they put him into prison again.
They are like playing with him.
So he's a very famous journalist in Turkey.
We were in a taxi going to what's his name?
he's Boris.
Everyone knows him in Turkey.
so we were in a taxi, like going to a film gala, and we were just
talking about this and that.
I mean, it was supposed to be a joyful moment, a peaceful moment,
because we had a, like, a nice day.
But then he started to, as it was very normal, because we are so used to it.
This is the funny part.
He started to talk about, uh, like he knows my case, of course, and
he was like, okay, don't be afraid.
I will tell you what to do when you go to prison.
And imagine that you are not eating very healthy when you're outside, but in
jail, they will, they will serve you at least twice parsley, you know, or herbs,
you know, it was a very funny moment.
And he told, he started to tell me how to do exercises in jail.
And I stopped for a moment.
And asked him, okay, are we aware of, are we really aware
of what we are talking about?
Is everything is so normal?
It's a very funny moment.
I mean, it's crazy.
I mean, why are we two friends are talking about this?
So it's, it's such a, like a thing that we are used to, which is very sad, actually.
Terry Anderson: And absurd to to be in that situation over.
A cartoon anyway, a cartoon of any description, but
your cartoon in particular.
I think we should have a look at it, because we keep referring to
it, but we haven't seen it yet.
Zehra Omeroglu: Yeah,
So tell
Daryl Cagle: us about this.
Zehra Omeroglu: Can you believe I've been, uh, judged of prison from six months
to three years because of this cartoon?
Because of this ordinary, just, just a funny cartoon about a
couple, I, I, I can't believe.
Daryl Cagle: This is a COVID cartoon about losing his taste and
smell, which is really quite funny.
and it ran in a magazine where this is, uh, appropriate to
the content of the magazine.
Zehra Omeroglu: Yeah, I, I drew this for LeMan.
and, I mean, there are many cartoons like this in, uh, there were actually
many cartoons like this, so it was normal to draw this, I mean, it's nothing, we
drew many more, like, if it's obscene, we draw much more obscene cartoons,
if, if you will tell it, like, obscene.
So, it was just an ordinary cartoon, but, the judge, we have routine, checks weekly.
I mean, if you're publishing a satirical magazine or, uh, like a cartoon magazine,
it goes to the judge, a counsel, and then they, they do it, uh, like,
like a routine, you know, regularly.
And so they checked these, uh, that week's, uh, checks.
magazine, LeMan magazine and then they found this cartoon obscene
and they started an investigation.
But they called me from the magazine telling me that the police came
to the, to Le Mans to ask about me because an investigation has started
and I was, I wasn't expecting that.
expecting any, uh, investigation or anything about this cartoon.
So the cartoon that came to my mind was the previous one about COVID in
Iran one, which I told, uh, which also Terry told it's connected.
yes, this one, because after this cartoon, uh, maybe I should translate it.
It says, uh, COVID in Iran.
Uh, and the woman says, Oh, something like, oh, what a chance
at least our mouth was open.
So it was a, it was a cartoon about like the mandatory dress code in Iran.
these wearing hijab, you know, the things that going on these days about
women and this obligatory dress code.
So the cartoon was about, woman who forced to wear this.
Uh, but it was so misunderstood and like Turkish media, uh, targeted me
and I had many lynchings in social media and, like being threated, uh,
by many groups from Iranian media also and, uh, a group called, like,
I don't remember, but it was like Islamist lawyers, blah, blah, something.
I don't even remember.
There were so many.
and then they said, okay, you will pay for it, blah, blah.
They called LeMan and they called me.
And there were many, like posts in social media.
and just after that, so this cartoon came to my mind when our
editor called me and said, okay you have an investigation started.
But it's always the same, you know, they find the most insulting
way to, punish you, insulting in their, uh, point of view.
I think it's not an insulting, but think, but, uh, they think like this, I think
because for a woman it's an, um, in a conservative society, it's an insulting
thing to draw about sex and like a couple, uh, having sex, blah, blah.
so, uh, it's always connected, but they find the most insulting way to punish you.
so yes, just, just a very few, maybe a week or two weeks later that I, after I
drew this cartoon, the investigation for the other obscenity cartoons started.
Yeah, this one.
And I was really shocked.
I couldn't believe.
And I, I thought, okay, an investigation started, it happened, okay, absurd, but it
happened, but it won't turn to a lawsuit.
I wasn't, I was almost sure, because I, um, found the number of the judge and I
called him and he laughed to the cartoon.
And I called the lawyer and lawyer also laughed to the cartoon.
And I mean, everyone was, everyone was laughing.
So I thought, okay, not a big problem.
It will be okay.
It will just be closed.
But then I learned that, in a very short time, I learned that it turned to a trial,
and I'm being judged, uh, from six months to three years of prison and plus a fine.
Um, and it has been
Daryl Cagle: Well, it seems clear that they're more annoyed with you
than the other cartoonists because you're a woman and They're trying to
stifle cartoonists in general because, uh, everybody is watching this.
Zehra Omeroglu: Yeah, it's always harder when, when you're a woman because, uh,
there's the role that, uh, that you have to play as a woman, you know, you have
to be a woman like at home, uh, like you have to give the government kids, you
know, children and be silent, you know, play your role in a conservative, society.
I cannot say it's an Islamist, uh, I mean, the government is like this
maybe, but the society, I mean, we have many different people, like seculars
and conservatives, so I don't want to define it like Islamist society.
It's not actually.
yeah, it's not but it's yeah, I can say there is a big conservative group.
who will judge a woman?
for this I mean for talking about sex or for not playing the role
that has been uh imposed to you
Terry Anderson: It's patriarchal and conservative.
Daryl Cagle: Other cartoonists in Turkey have gotten in trouble for
criticizing President Erdogan.
And we hear about newspapers being shut down and journalists going to jail,
again, for criticizing the government.
Are you also criticizing the government?
And do you get a sense that they're, coming down on you to generally chill you?
Zehra Omeroglu: Um, actually, 10 years before, I was very shocked when I was
in my personal archive, you know, when I was checking my cartoons because
I didn't feel like there, there is such a huge change in my cartoons.
But when I was checking my cartoons I drew 10 years ago, I, uh, I, well, I saw
that, I criticized, um, Um, the president and the government, I drew many things,
but in time it has changed completely.
You cannot, like criticize anything right now in a magazine.
And it's very funny that my male colleagues are being judged of criticizing
like a government or drawing about Erdogan or the other government members.
But when you're a woman, you are being judged more about like morality issues.
I, I find it kind of funny because I dream really maybe harsh cartoons.
I don't know if harsh is a negative word, but hard, I can say, I don't
know, uh, very strong cartoons about government also, but they, wanted to
judge me, because of this cartoon, but my male colleagues are, they're
facing many like, trials also.
about, uh, like political cartoons.
Terry Anderson: There's nobody at the present time that, that has problems
that compare with Zehra's, uh, which is maybe a blessing, but as you allude to,
there's been many cases in the past.
Mr.
Cart is probably the best known internationally.
Um, Erdogan went after him three times.
The first two times he was effectively laughed out of court because, the
judge took a dim view of, uh, first the Prime Minister and later the
President, trying to suggest that cartoons of him were somehow out
of the ordinary or beyond the pale.
and, third time round, uh, Erdogan won, uh, Musa Kart stood trial along
with multiple staff members from the Cumhuriyet newspaper, and in
Musa's case it was actually in the end nothing to do with the cartoons.
He was undone by his choice of travel agent.
Because the prosecution, uh, suggested that the travel agent was, uh, a front
was laundering money for fifth columnists and seditionists, and that Musa was
well aware of that, and all the poor guy tried to do was book a holiday.
so for the sake of that, he went to jail.
and as you said, quite rightly, Daryl, um, as a whole, um, Turkey had a a, a.
a heritage and a history of cartooning to rival France, I would
say, and it's all been degraded terribly, uh, in the recent past.
Zehra Omeroglu: I think I want to add something here.
As far as I know, the, the man that Musa Kart was in touch with that caused
him to go to jail, you know, the owner of the tourism agency, uh, I think he,
uh, he became a minister or something after this, which is, yeah, it's
very, really, it's, uh, it's strange.
And plus Musa Kart is the most famous one, uh, that we all know,
but there, there are many cartoonists that was, uh, being judged for now.
Um, I don't think if there is ongoing, uh, trials, I'm not sure.
As far as I know, one friend of mine is being judged, but I don't know if the
case ended, but it's very, sad that we are so used to it and even if we are
talking like in a group of colleagues, uh, they are like, okay, it's normal.
So we accept it, which is the worst part, I think they, we don't even report it.
Which is really sad.
Terry Anderson: The one that made me laugh back in the day was the two,
the, the poor guys that did the,
the
caricature of Erdogan on the front cover of Penguin Magazine.
Do you remember this one where Erdogan was buttoning?
He was buttoning his coats.
Yeah.
But because he was making a, a, a circle with his thumb and forefinger,
that was deemed to be something to do with, um, assholes as I recall.
And so it was all,
Zehra Omeroglu: can I say misinterpret?
It's something, yeah, sorry, it's something to, can, I don't know
if it's politically correct to say gay, but please correct me.
Terry Anderson: That's what I'm kind of, yeah, alluding to, and Erdogan saw it
and got in a strop about it and said, we're going to take these guys to court.
Daryl Cagle: Zehra, can you talk about this one?
Zehra Omeroglu: Yeah, this one is, it's very, uh, I cannot believe each time,
Terry, you know, I'm always telling this, but I really cannot believe when I'm
telling this about these cartoons because it's, it's so ordinary, funny cartoons.
It's written like in a slang way, but I will try to translate.
It's written on the gray, uh, screen.
Stone that the, the, uh, flexe didn't give a sh-t.
Like, it doesn't, uh, work.
Uh, sorry if it's rude, but the translation of the cartoon is this.
I drew this because, um, I mean on the tv, on YouTube, everywhere,
like they were these, uh.
Doctors or people who are not doctors, they are trying to sell these flax seeds.
It's an industry, you know, flax seed will make you live forever.
Like this fake news.
Daryl Cagle: So this is a COVID cure.
Zehra Omeroglu: Yeah.
It's the cure for everything like COVID and everything, you know, as they say.
Anyway.
So, yeah, maybe I drew this after the COVID cartoons as a cure.
Anyway, so, I drew this and I.
It's such an ordinary cartoon and I wasn't expecting any reactions.
I was almost shocked when I see the, when I saw the comments, under the
post and like, not just the comments, I had like messages and, uh, like in
some websites, they started to talk about it, like threatening me and
saying very, really harsh things.
Like you will go to the, you will go where did your colleagues
from, uh, Charlie Hebdo went?
Like, threatening like this, or like, you will see what happens in your own grave,
blah, blah, you will pay, uh, this hard.
And I was really shocked because I didn't understand.
it's just flax seeds.
I couldn't believe what, uh, what's going on.
I didn't know.
And then I saw, I learned from the Comments that the prophet has a saying
about flax seeds so All the like all the Islamists they they went mad about
this But how am I supposed to know that?
Uh, like all the sayings of the prophet?
I mean Why am I expected to know it?
I have no idea
Daryl Cagle: Do you have to be aware of everything that's gone on in
the Qur'an to make sure you don't put that stuff in your cartoons?
Zehra Omeroglu: Yeah, maybe I should, uh, read it carefully.
Not to mention what's going on there in my cartoons.
This is what is
Emad Hajjaj: If I might add something here, I think the problem is not with
the Islam, it's about the fatwas, the extreme explanations of Quran,
which make it difficult for some Muslim cartoonists to do their job.
Zehra Omeroglu: Yeah.
There are many different groups.
Emad Hajjaj: Yeah.
Many explanations, many fatwas about it.
Zehra Omeroglu: And so there are very different groups who
can perceive and interpret.
the cartoons and Turkey.
Emad Hajjaj: Turkey is considered one of the most, tolerated, uh, Islamic countries
with arts and, and cartooning, uh, and the country of other extreme countries.
For example, still in some, uh, countries, uh, some Islamic clerk say that you
cannot draw or portray living things.
It's haram.
It's forbidden.
Just drawing an animal or a human being for them is unacceptable.
Can you imagine?
But while in other countries, they consider cartoon art, they respect it,
they tolerate it for, for certain degrees and variations from country to another.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Well, that's, that's the shock to me because, uh, we, I think of Turkey
as being a place where there's a whole bunch of great cartoonists.
And when I look at, uh, where our traffic to our sites come from, around the world,
Turkey is one of the main countries that wants to visit our editorial cartoons.
we get it from the romance language countries and from Turkey.
My goodness, to have Turkey be one of the least tolerant of
cartooning, that's shocking.
Zehra Omeroglu: It's really shocking for us also, because, uh, we drew many things.
I mean, there were many satirical cartoon magazines, it was better than a newspaper
to learn about the news from editorial, from the cartoons, political cartoons.
And, it has a really, it had a very, strong effect, impact on people.
So it's shocking for me to see how it is right now actually it's very sad
Daryl Cagle: And these comments on the right are are threats to you.
Zehra Omeroglu: Yes Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know which ones but yes It was very uh strange I had to translate
these comments and I couldn't believe i'm translating this because all these
threatenings and swears in like in Turkish I had to translate it all it
was such a weird moment, you know You
Daryl Cagle: Boy, what are we looking at here, Terry?
Terry Anderson: So my organization, Cartoonist Rights, we give out
an award every couple of years.
We alternate with the Freedom Cartoonist Foundation in Geneva,
led by Patrick Chappatte.
I believe he's been a guest on the podcast before.
So this is the cartoonist we most recently gave an award to, Abecor, out of Bolivia.
And his cartoons that got him in trouble concerned the Attorney General.
Wilfredo Chavez, in this cartoon, the guy, uh, himself, Chavez, is portrayed
kind of in free fall, amid an ongoing scandal, um, denying that the, uh,
OAS had done an audit in, Bolivia.
And, as a result of this, and as the, the second cartoon that we'll see with
the same figure, big shock of white hair, Chavez here is pulling a rabbit
out of a hat, and the, the rabbit's holding a sign saying, no fraud.
And because of these cartoons, Abecor, very much like Zerah, got a lot of
death threats online, threats of violence directed not just towards
him but also members of his family.
Um, but in his case, Abakor became quite concerned and convinced
that he was being followed.
Um, that there was, uh, incidents, in the street, outside his home, uh, and so
on, that, that gave him a cause for his cause for concern, for his own safety.
And the big, uh, trade unions for journalism in Bolivia all sounded
the alarm and said that they were, um, very alarmed as well, very
concerned for his, uh, safety.
So we gave him our Courage in Cartooning Award in 2023.
he came to DC to Washington, DC to, to receive his award.
There he is, eh, with myself and our, eh, vice president, Nick Kosar,
himself an Iranian cartoonist, who got in trouble with the regime.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, Nick was in jail in Iran as well.
Terry Anderson: Yes, yes, and in actual fact, ehm, in absentia,
eh, got, eh, not so long ago, got, a, sentence to another 40 years.
So technically, if he were to, to have a return, eh, which
obviously is Not inclined to do, but if he were ever to return, he
would go straight to jail again.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I expected in places like Bolivia and Iran,
those are both, notably repressive regimes, which shocks me is that it's
spreading to, countries that should have free press and I'm troubled.
Tell us about, uh, tell us about Rashida, Terry.
Terry Anderson: Rashida is one of the two cartoonists honoured by her
counterparts in Geneva this year, in the Freedom Cartoonist Foundation.
So, Rashida, uh, doesn't work with, or at least didn't work
with, any particular news platform.
she posts to Twitter.
Instagram.
And she does
Daryl Cagle: Rashida is from India and she's, she's an, she's doing drawings
of, Modi and, she draws in a stick figure style just for social media.
So
Terry Anderson: Instagram primarily, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Uh, she's suffering just because of what she posts on social media.
And I should mention that in a whole lot of countries in the
world, cartoonists aren't published at all in a traditional sense.
They just get in trouble for what they put on social media.
Terry Anderson: So, a couple of cartoons in particular got her in trouble.
We can't look at them, unfortunately.
her lawyer has been quite clear that he believes that even showing them again
in the context of a discussion like this would make life harder for Rashida.
So these cartoons that we're looking at are just examples of her work rather than
the specific ones that got her in trouble.
But they were about the Supreme Court.
And the Supreme Court, after receiving a complaint from a law student, deemed them
to be sufficiently insulting, that, that criminal, eh, charges were warranted.
So, rather like Zehra, Rashida's in a, in a kind of a loop, the case
just goes round and round and round.
Like courts in all countries, eh, India's, eh, Supreme Court and, and
its lower chambers are all dealing with a backlog from the pandemic.
So there is, on the one hand, a legitimate excuse.
For cases not being heard quickly, but on the other hand, in our opinion, with cases
like this, and this has certainly been the case with Zehra's, as well, excuses
are found to delay, because keeping the case active but not, anywhere near a
conclusion, has a, psychological effect, obviously there are costs involved if
you're retaining a lawyer, it also chills you, so to speak, in terms of the cartoons
that you produce while the case is still active because you worry about are you
aggravating the complainants, are you going to make things worse, are you more
likely to get a harsher sentence depending on what you draw in the meantime, so it
actually behooves the The people that want to suppress the cartoonists to have the
case go on indefinitely and actually never come to trial or come to a definitive
end because of course, there's always the outside possibility of acquittal.
And that doesn't suit them.
Daryl Cagle: I hear from other cartoonists in India.
that describe different ways that the government, gives them trouble
and makes it clear that, they want their cartoons to be, toeing the line.
One cartoonist friend in particular was living in a government apartment
building, which I guess is common in India, and the government
kicked him out of his apartment.
There are other creative ways that governments use to oppress cartoonists.
Terry Anderson: And a lot of requests to the social media
platforms to remove material.
Twitter, in particular, is very compliant with the Indian government
and takes down anything that they ask.
Here is Rashita.
This is her receiving her award in Geneva.
From Patrick in the center, along with Marie José, his vice
president at the foundation.
The Nobel Prize winner, Shirin Ebadi from Iran, is on the left.
On the right is Christiane Amanpour from CNN.
And the other gentleman holding an award is Zunzi, the other cartoonist
that was honoured, this year.
Zunzi's in Hong Kong, where, suppressive security laws that
have come in, as Hong Kong further integrates with mainland China.
Daryl Cagle: that's no surprise.
Terry Anderson: Yeah, it's led to many cartoonists leaving.
Zunzi has stuck the course, he's, he doesn't want to leave.
But, he lost his newspaper post of some 40 years with the Ming Pao paper,
last year after multiple cartoons of his were criticized by various,
public figures, um, from the, from the administration in Hong Kong.
Daryl Cagle: Who drew this one?
Terry Anderson: That's Zunzi.
So these are Zunzi's cartoons.
Now
criticizing the education system.
So not only has Z's, uh, newspaper post come to an end, but, um, he's a
very popular cartoonist in, in Hong Kong and has been for a long time.
All of his books have been removed from all of the libraries.
Daryl Cagle: Well, this is China.
This is not a surprise.
Terry Anderson: The little character in Chinese is, is law.
So it's the law being used as a weapon.
Daryl Cagle: he's very brave to push back against this.
Terry Anderson: He's translated this one for us, so this is one of the
cartoons that ran in Ming Pao newspaper, in particular drew ire from it.
Daryl Cagle: The policeman says, so what nasty things!
The students have done today, headmistress.
And headmistress says, a student in class 6A spoke foul language.
5C student lost an eraser.
A laser pen is found in the school bag of a boy in 3D.
A teacher of 2A is threatened by a student who disobeyed him.
Terry Anderson: So just talking about all the various infractions
and misdemeanors that have come in.
As a consequence of these changes to the laws in Hong Kong.
Daryl Cagle: I should say that there are lots of great, Chinese
cartoonists, and they have editorial cartooning there, although it is
all very explicitly, toying the line on just about every issue in China.
We have, Chinese cartoonist Luo Ji, who we syndicate, who is the cartoonist
for the English language China Daily newspaper, and he's considered
an official voice of the Chinese government, which owns his newspaper.
I find that the Chinese cartoonists are remarkably
unmotivated, to push boundaries.
You know, you look through all, uh, lots of other countries where cartoonists are
threatened and, I would think all the Arab countries where they're always frustrated
at pushing against the, the boundaries and, and trying to, say what they want
despite the government pushing them back.
And, it is, uh, it, it's telling to me that in Asia we don't see that.
the cartoonists do not seem at all motivated to push
back against the boundaries.
And, perhaps that's just because, they've spent a longer time
with a more repressive regime.
I don't know, but I can't explain why I don't see the motivation
there that I see in other countries like the Arab countries.
Terry Anderson: Yeah, there's some bright spots.
There's, there's, there's some, some good cartoonists in the Philippines.
There's, um, there's Zunar in Malaysia, of course.
I, I think you're right with the observation that there's some sort of
kind of perhaps somewhat more fundamental cultural difference that perhaps has
made people generally less reluctant.
I think it's, I think Hong Kong cartoonists are different in essence
because for so many years Hong Kong was in effect Britain, and so the cartoonists
there were influenced and were accustomed to seeing a different kind of material.
but, There's no doubt that, as I say, for the majority of
cartoonists that were in Hong Kong, things have become so intolerable
now that they've actually left.
Here's another
Zehra Omeroglu: one.
I have a question, sorry.
Sure.
Maybe you told, but I might have missed, is Zunzi, right?
Zunzi can continue to live in Hong Kong right now, or he had to leave?
Terry Anderson: He's still there.
but his opportunities have shrunk with no newspaper carrying his work and, as
I say, with his books, the books of his cartoons effectively being withdrawn, his
career is kind of stalled at the moment, but he has a family, he doesn't, you know,
it's complicated, as you know yourself.
It's not easy to just immediately leave.
Daryl Cagle: So, his new cartoons are appearing only on social media.
Terry Anderson: For the time being, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Here's another one from, that Zunzi translated for us.
Recruiting world class talents.
Priority will be given to applicants who can tolerate despotic government.
Terry Anderson: Still prides itself on being this big economic hub, of course, so
there's a lot of emphasis people coming to Hong Kong to study and, um, Um, companies
basing themselves there and so forth.
Daryl Cagle: And now please come and look at another museum's collection.
Terry Anderson: Lost a little in translation there, I think,
but he was helping us out.
So it's a straightforward cartoon about censorship.
Censorship of artwork, in Hong Kong.
This is Safaa Oda.
Yep.
So, Safaa is one of the cartoonists, eh, we're still keeping an eye on in Gaza.
Safaa's cartoons are really not political.
Um, she, she's, she's a very emotional cartoonist.
Her cartoons are about family, they're about relationships, motherhood.
and, in the last few months, her home was destroyed, by the IDF.
And a family of about 20.
I believe, including something like 11 or 12 children are now in a, refugee
camp in, uh, Khan Yunis in Gaza.
So the cartoons like these, previously, she was posting to social media.
but if we cycle through them, you'll start to see a difference, In the quality,
the way that they're drawn, um, so this again is more typical, obviously the
bombardment had started at this point.
Daryl Cagle: So Safaa is a cartoonist in trouble simply
because she's a resident of Gaza.
Terry Anderson: By dint of where she happened to be born, exactly.
Here we are.
This is very different.
You can see the difference in the quality of the drawing, and that's
because, again, obviously having lost her home and everything that was in
it, and with material being in such short supply generally, she's no
longer drawing on pieces of paper.
Safaa draws on the plastic sheeting on the side of the tent.
She takes a photograph, posts the drawing to her Facebook page
and Instagram, and then erases.
the drawing and starts over.
So it's about as grim a testament to where we are right now as you can imagine.
And this is a different cartoonist, Mahasen Al again in Gaza.
This was the last cartoon that she posted.
This was shortly after the bombings of the hospitals in northern Gaza.
uh, roughly a month ago now, if I recall correctly, and she died, she died about
a day or so after this cartoon was posted again, um, when, where she was, uh, in
the Jabalia refugee camp in the north of Gaza was bombed again by the IDF.
So this really arrested the attention of cartoonists everywhere, and our colleague
in Italy, Gianluca Costantini, spearheaded an initiative to get her recognized at
the big Lucca festival that was happening shortly after the news broke, and as you
can see that was successful, so an award was given at that event in her honor.
In her memory.
This is my cartoon.
this and the following one, I've included just as an illustration of where we
are and the journey that I've been on.
So the first cartoon I drew a decade ago, it's a Charlie Hebdo cartoon.
It'll be 10 years since the attack this January.
And like most cartoonists, I wanted to respond in some way.
So it's a fairly straightforward cartoon.
The grim reaper standing over a gravestone marked cartoonist
and the grim reaper saying,
So the following one.
Ten years later, it has two officials on a dockside.
There are people in boats, small boats, dinghies, floating in the water.
And the first official says, Oh aye, what's this lot's story?
War?
Famine?
Fire?
Flood?
And the other fella says, Cartoonists.
They say they're not welcome anywhere.
Ten years ago, we were all worried about terrorism and extremism and
Islamic fundamentalism, etc, etc, etc.
A decade later, it's displacement.
It's refugees and the cartoonists that we're working with.
Increasingly, when they come to us with an issue, it's either something that
They think will lead to them having to leave their home, or it does lead
to them having to leave their home.
So
Daryl Cagle: Emad, we come to you.
This is the cartoon that got you thrown in jail.
Emad Hajjaj: Yes, yes, okay.
So this is the cartoon I got the jail for.
It was published in the year.
2020, again, it's it's social media.
I, you know, Jordan, just like many other countries, we have a
big, big, problem in the newspapers that aren't working anymore.
So me, just like many others, I published my cartoons outside Jordan.
This cartoon was published in a Qatari newspaper.
What I did actually was just sharing my cartoon from that
newspaper into my Twitter account.
I, I still remember that day when I got that strange phone call.
It was obviously some man in the Jordanian security.
He was really, really angry, was really pissed off.
And he was talking about my cartoon, and he was saying that.
I will regret that cartoon and that same day I was arrested.
Although I, one of, many of my friends advised me to, delete the tweet.
I did that.
The cartoon was only posted for a few hours.
Five hours something.
After I deleted the tweet, I expected things to calm down, but
by the afternoon I was coming back.
I was outside the, city of Amman.
I was coming back, to Amman and one of the checkpoints just stopped me.
I was driving my car with, uh, my wife, They looked, uh, they,
they did with me in a rough way.
They double checked my ID and I ended up in the jail and it was really
shocking, really, bad situation for me and more for my family, for my wife.
You know, it's the first time I go to jail ever.
And, all the time I was isolated from the world.
I didn't know what's happening.
I didn't know even it was, about that.
I was just.
Speculating, expecting it is because of that cartoon.
So the next day
Daryl Cagle: So they didn't tell you that it was this cartoon?
They never laid down the rules that they expected you to do to comply,
to have your cartoons be okay?
Emad Hajjaj: At the checkpoint, police just told me that you are wanted.
You are not allowed to drive.
You should go now.
We will transfer you.
to the main police department in Amman.
And just other, the other day, I, I met and we have a department
in the police called the cybercrime, cybercrime department.
So I met one of the officers which I used to know because I used to, to
give him some, some of my cartoons.
He happens to be a cartoon fan and he was really a nice officer,
but he did, but he was kind enough to tell me what's happening.
He told me it was about this cartoon.
He says, it's, obviously, a case raised, against you from the state, from the
Jordanian, government in the name of the, Emirati, Embassy in Jordan and, I was
transferred to the car that, you know, uh, that day, accompanied by the police.
I was expecting just like many times before I will stand, before
a judge, he will hear me and I will be bailed out or go to my home.
Obviously this one was, uh, different.
I, I was shocked that the, uh, the judge transferred me into a Marshall, court,
Daryl Cagle: a military court.
Emad Hajjaj: Yeah.
Military court.
It is, it is a very, very dangerous court.
It is.
Daryl Cagle: Can, can you
explain what the cartoon
is about?
Emad Hajjaj: Yeah, let me explain.
It's, uh, this cartoon, uh, simply, starts with an Arabic line at the top
of the cartoon, which is simply a news item that was published by that time.
It says Israel asking United States not to sell F 35s for United Arab Emirates, even
after the normalization deal with So the Emirati media was Talking to the Arabs, we
are making deal with the Israelis, we are normalizing, uh, normalizing relations.
Because we are expecting to have arms sell to us.
We will be getting tanks.
Daryl Cagle: And and who is this guy that's getting spat upon?
Yeah, this is, this is the trick there.
Uh, in Arabic cartooning, it's sometimes, it's, it's our, our trick, sometimes it's
better not to mention who's that guy is.
, just to stay on the safe side, but everybody will know it.
So what it is mb.
Muhammad
Terry Anderson: Bin Zaid
Emad Hajjaj: Mohamed bin Zaid.
But I didn't wrote that so legally I didn't write his name.
Even my tweets, sometimes I drew presidents.
I do a hashtagging.
I put Trump hashtag Sisi, for example, but in this case, I didn't mention his name.
So legally, this cartoon should be clean.
Anyway, I was arrested.
I knew from the judge it was about this cartoon and one another one.
Which was or two two cartoons, which were previously shared on my twitter
account And I was transferred into the military court or the marshal court.
I was really shocked.
I was wasn't believing What is happening with me?
Uh, you know this kind of court is usually dedicated for dangerous Criminals or
terrorists or people who threaten the state not for cartoonists and it was
really really terrifying Me Accompanied by the police and standing in front of
all of these martial, military judges.
they were obviously very, very angry.
And, they were just asking me questions just to make sure that I
am the owner of that Twitter account.
And that it was me who posted or did that share.
And that's it.
I ended up in the jail.
and, uh, let me, let me keep explaining the cartoon, uh, Sorry, Daryl.
So it's basically saying Israel asking the United States not
to sell, Emirates, F 35 planes.
At the same time, we see MBZ or something, somebody like it, holding
the Israeli peace, the Israeli dove, the Israeli deal that he made.
It's spitting on his face.
It's rejecting him, even though he did that deal with them.
That piece is spitting on his face and the spit shape is shaped
like the F 35 because it's an
Daryl Cagle: Is that deal the Abraham Accords?
Emad Hajjaj: Yes, yes, the Abraham Accords, yes.
So, there's a playing on word thing here, the letter F in English, it sounds like
the Tef in Arabic, which means spit.
So, this is, this is a twist of the cartoon.
So, I just throw it.
And it was published in Al Arab Al Jadid newspaper.
They find it suitable and they just run it.
And, I was put to jail.
I spent five days in uh, jail.
It was the, uh, peak of the pandemic, at that time, uh, horrible hours, horrible
times I spent in that, uh, prison.
I never, I didn't know what's happening outside.
I got three or four visits.
from my lawyer and, from my wife and another friend, the lawyer
was not optimistic about my case.
He told me, Emad, you are, , being judged under a very dangerous
article in the martial, court law, which is threatening, Jordanian, uh,
relations with a, with a friend state.
And, I know from an experiment that there's a guy called Zaki
bin Rashid, an Islamic activist.
he had been put to jail one year for this same, accusation.
So you better prepare yourself.
You, you will be present at least one year.
I was, really shocked.
I, I remember my first night at jail.
that I missed my family.
I missed my room.
I missed My daily routine, for a time I was crying actually.
It was really, really bad, bad, bad times.
that I, made some friends actually in my, cell at the jail.
Because one of the officers happened to be a fan of Abu Mahjoub.
He used to see my cartoons and he told me that his sons loved my
work very much and he was really shocked to see me in the jail.
So he did
this job.
Daryl Cagle: Mahjoob was a cartoon character that you
made very popular in Jordan.
Emad Hajjaj: Yes.
It's conditional that the man is of the street in Jordan,
everybody in Jordan know him.
So the guy was really nice and he, he put me in like the
five star cell of that jail.
The only cell that have hot water and a little miserable
TV, but means a lot for us.
So During the five days, I made some friends, pretty
nice people I met in my cell.
There were like four of them.
I found a place where you can buy some notebook and, ink pens.
I did bought a notebook and a pen and tried to do some sketches inside the cell.
all the, uh, other presidents, they insisted me to draw their faces and
did that for every single one of them.
and did some cartoons from the, things I hear during the, the present.
At the fifth day, I was isolated, totally isolated about thing,
what's happening outside.
So at the fifth day, I still remember that day, I was preparing myself for
the lunch, which was a broasted chicken.
They serve it once a week.
Which was a really big thing in that prison.
So I was holding and holding or standing on the queue for to get my daily meal
and suddenly I get that policeman coming to me directly said Emad you
are wanted you should go to the head office of the warden or the the prison
manager He took me there and they informed me Emad you are being released.
Why what happened?
I didn't know You When I, when I was released, it is, as simple as that.
You take your stuff and go So I was suddenly on the street.
Nobody's waiting for me.
but I was happy to be free again.
some hours after I contacted my friends and some people, they were happy to,
and one of them was my lawyer, who was really shocked to see me out.
So I, was thanking him for letting me, he said, Emad, I don't
know, I think nothing about you.
I don't know how did the prison let you out.
After that, I knew that, you know, in Jordan, there is, in the
back scene, and many people can.
Control things.
Obviously somebody up there, maybe the king, maybe he interfered and, requested
that I, this, this thing should end up.
my case transferred directly into the civil, courts and it
was a really ordinary, trial.
I have a lawyer going regularly to the court and ironically the case
was closed after like four months.
Because the compliant or the guy who made the case is absent.
He's not there This is exactly the reason the judge gave to end
the case and I asked my lawyer.
What does this mean?
He says it's something conditional.
So this guy is absent with the Jordanian government For example, if it come
again, the case could be raised again
Yeah, so that's still hanging over your head.
Yeah And, you have moved to the United States, so that you can continue
drawing your cartoons freely about, in all of the foreign publications.
And, uh, that's great and it makes me happy, uh, At a time when i'm i'm
usually not too happy with our our new government in the United States.
I'm certainly happy that they gave you a green card and it
is wonderful to have you here.
I
Terry Anderson: think it's worth
saying I didn't
have Sorry, Emad.
Emad Hajjaj: Yes, please, please, Terry.
Yeah,
Terry Anderson: I think it's worth saying for anyone that hasn't heard
you speak before, or doesn't know you so well, Emad is without question,
in my opinion, the most well known cartoonist from Jordan, president of
the Jordanian Cartoonist Association.
As we've discussed, his work appeared regularly in foreign press.
And Jordan, generally speaking, in relative terms, was perceived
to be tolerant of satire, tolerant of the cartoonists that lived
there, far more so than some of the other countries that are nearby.
So when he was arrested, it was really a big deal.
A high profile figure, if you were going to arrest a cartoonist, you couldn't have
arrested a higher profile figure than Emad And the message that that sent,
No doubt to all the other cartoonists in the country, but to the rest of
us as well, watching from outside was really marked and really palpable.
And you may disagree with me, I don't know, Imad, but in my opinion,
because the case kind of came to nothing in the way that you describe,
albeit with the possibility of it being reactivated in the future.
But because it came on so strong to begin with, and then seemed
to just kind of peter out, in my opinion, you were used as a pawn.
Thank you.
I, I think you were used to placate, the UAE in a way that's quite disgraceful, and
again, you can disagree with me, I don't know, and this may get cut out, but it's
worth stating that in the, in the same day that you were Posting your stuff to social
media the junior prince in the in the royal family was making tweets about MBZ
as well And absolutely nothing happened to him because nothing can happen to him
Emad Hajjaj: Many
people said that actually as you said it Terry, but I should mention that
I told you, that I I don't really what happened, but But knowing now,
and I'm talking four years after, uh, my, my, my, me in the present,
I know definitely what happened now.
I think that people like Terry, who raised their voice.
When I was put to prison, people like Daryl, people like my colleague,
cartoonists all over the world who did cartoons about me in jail.
I saw their wonderful works about me when I got out.
Definitely, definitely, this helped a lot in letting me out.
As a cartoonist in general, yes, I am famous, but when it comes to, authority
and government, I'm nothing to them.
I'm just a person they can just throw me in jail and nobody will know about it.
Now they know I'm not alone because I have, colleagues, cartoonists from
all over the world raising their voice and asking for my release.
This is one of the, Most valuable things that I, I will never forget in my life.
If somebody I had to, to thank for me being free out of the jail, it is
my colleague cartoonists everywhere, who raised their voice and asked for
my And that's why I think, I should tell you frankly, the time before
I was put to jail, I was looking at the, uh Other cartoonists putting to
jail and the calls for their support.
I wasn't taking them very seriously and rarely I draw, in solidarity
with cartoonists in jail.
After I was put to jail, is, and I know exactly how the cartoonist
feel when he is inside the prison.
And I took these calls very seriously and I make my best now
to do my best to raise my voice in solidarity with any cartoonist.
Who's facing trouble or put to jail anywhere.
And, I think this is very, very important for us as a cartoonist to speak for
ourselves and to stand beside each other talking about cartoonists who,
you said they're that Arab countries.
Uh, thank you for showing the cartoons.
I thank.
Every single cartoonist who did a cartoon about me that time.
And I'm having this collection.
It's a very dear collection for me.
And as I told you, it inspires me to do the same for any colleague
cartoonists around the world.
So I was saying that, Maybe the most miserable cartoonist who was put to jail
is the Syrian cartoonist Akram Raslan.
I don't know, I'm sure you know about him.
In the year 2015, Akram was put to jail, in Sednaya prison in
Syria, one of the most ugly, uh, ugliest, uh, prisons in the world.
Akram under torture in that prison.
Here's a cartoon for you.
Not Akram Raslan, a cartoon for Ali Farzat.
I'm sure you know him.
Also, Ali have a very, very sad story.
we'll talk about it if you want, but I'm talking about Akram.
Akram is a cartoonist who spent some time in the prison and
ended up, to die under torture.
Can you imagine this?
an artist who used to draw in colors and do wonderful ideas.
to do.
Suddenly he's a victim of torture.
He's, he's, he's slaughtered in some prison.
It is, really, really, uh, hard to me when I, when I think about
cartoonists in these situations.
sometimes I find my cartoons very, very minor.
They cannot do anything for the horrible things that they faced for
the horrible situation that some cartoonists, while we are talking
now, they are facing hard times.
They are left alone in, in, in their selves.
And, uh, I hope it will not happen again to any other cartoonist.
And for me, coming to the United States, yes, it is, it is me
seeking better, conditions.
Because I will not change myself.
I will keep cartoonist until the last moment of my life.
This is what we are.
We love our job.
Even if all of the newspapers closed, we will keep on drawing
cartoons because we love this.
It is our passion.
It is the things that we are good at.
It is giving our life our meanings.
When I look at the cartoons of, like, the cartoon of Zahra, or the cartoons of Mr.
Terry or Daryl, I like these, you know, wonderful people.
We are like endangered species.
we should not allow them to let us just finish.
No, we will keep raising our voice.
We will, just keep doing our mess the way we like it as a cartoonist,
because this is how we are.
And We should not allow anybody to forbid us from doing this.
Zehra Omeroglu: I had a question for Emad.
I had a question for you.
Five minutes ago.
I was going to ask how these.
putting into jail and all the things you have, you had to gone through, uh,
has affected your motivation to draw.
But now, after your last sentences, I have my answer.
Thank you.
And I totally agree with you.
Yeah.
Emad Hajjaj: Yeah.
It is.
Terry Anderson: Have you, have you benefited?
Do you feel you've benefited in the same way from from international solidarity?
Zehra Omeroglu: Yes, I, yes, sure, of course, it's the best thing that
happened to me in this, all this absurdity, because, what's going on
is already too much, it's sometimes too heavy to carry, like, all this
prison process, possibility, and all the three things, blah, blah.
But there is one good thing in it that I felt all the solidarity, from the
supporting cartoonists organizations like Cartoonist Rights, I, I will tell
it everywhere, and Cartooning for Peace in France also, and the, the one that
invited me here, uh, I'm the first cartoonist that they invited me, ECBMF,
so it's, and all the colleagues, uh, who supports all over the world, it
really helps, because sometimes when it's well, it's heavy to carry all these
organizations and all these peoples, all the colleagues help you to carry
it, you know, it's very, very important.
Otherwise, uh, it would be maybe impossible to go on drawing
because you question yourself.
I mean, it's really big thing that you're facing, so it's very important.
Daryl Cagle: Are you drawing for Turkish publications while you're in Germany?
Zehra Omeroglu: I wasn't, but for a month, a very, very new, uh, like a
new, it's kind of application like New Yorker or, I, don't know how
to define it, describe it, but yes, I've started to draw for somewhere.
But it's not a press media.
It's only on social media and then application.
So it's a digital thing.
but I'm not drawing, political car.
I cannot say political.
Yes.
Because they are very trying to be very careful.
They're a little afraid.
Daryl Cagle: Are the publications not, um, giving you an opportunity
now because of your legal problems?
Zehra Omeroglu: Uh, yes, both because of my legal problems, because no one,
no newspaper wants to work with someone.
who is having troubles with government because no one, wants to face this risk.
because it's all so much pressure on them and they don't want to,
have take this extra pressure.
So, uh, it's impossible to draw anywhere actually.
I'm drawing cartoons.
I need to draw in a newspaper or a media like this, but no one lets it,
but I'm drawing for, like I'm a member of cartooning for peace and I'm drawing
for them, uh, like, every week maybe.
And my works are being published in, uh, sometimes in Le Monde or Le Temps
Daryl Cagle: Terry, do you have some, stuff you can say about
Cartoonists Rights Network and, how, uh, people can, make a donation to
you, which they certainly should do because of all your important work?
Terry Anderson: Sure.
So, we are, uh, 25 years old this year.
We were incorporated in 1999.
We are, despite my accent, uh, An American, a non profit.
So, those watching in America, if you do make a donation, it
is of course tax deductible.
You can go to our website, cartoonistrights.org/donate.
And if you come see us in the month of December, that's when we
always have our annual pledge drive that kicks off on Giving Tuesday.
That's the Tuesday after Thanksgiving, which this year
would make it December 3rd.
with any luck we will be able to hopefully, offer some, incentives.
some generous cartoonists might, give us some artwork that can be sent to Donors
as a thank you, but anything that you give, big or small, goes towards our core
costs, keeps the lights on, keeps the phones manned, everything that we need
to do in order to keep our eye on all these cartoonists around the world that
need our help, and as I mentioned before, going into 2025, that's an awards giving
year for us, so probably in May, 2020.
A Wordpress Freedom Day in May in 2025, we would expect to be recognizing another one
of our brave cartoonists with the Robert Russell Courage in Cartooning Award.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, any last words everyone?
Terry Anderson: I don't like the whole endangered species thing I'm at.
We are rare and beautiful things like unicorns, but that doesn't
mean we're an endangered species.
Emad Hajjaj: Thank you really for raising the , for focusing
on this important issue.
I should mention that, you have been a big support to me.
and, I really thank this, cast.
I, it's one of the things that I will, I will enjoy really, Seeing stuff
about cartoonists and their issues.
Thank you.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Well, Remember to subscribe to the Caglecast wherever you are watching or
listening today Our Caglecast is available in both video and audio versions.
So if you don't see the cartoons Go to Cagle.Com or Apple podcasts or Rumble
or YouTube or Spotify or Caglecast.com.
com to see the cartoons in the video podcast.
And be sure you go to Cagle.Com and subscribe to our free
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so you won't miss any of the great cartoons, especially the cartoons
from all the great world cartoonists.
And thank you again, folks.
Thank you.
All right.
I'll see you next time.
Bye everyone.